此处是否应该用to have been的形式

马羽鑫

It is believed to HAVE BEEN the rose which inspired the song The Last Rose of Summer by the Irish composer and poet Thomas Moore.

Oeasy

问：
It is believed to be the rose which inspired the song The Last Rose of Summer by the Irish composer and poet Thomas Moore. 这句话中的 to be the rose 是不是有问题？

' u, A  q/ a4 {1 t: y* @ChatGPT 回答：
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这句话中的 "to be the rose" 是正确的。使用 "to be" 而非 "to have been" 将强调人们普遍相信这朵玫瑰就是激发了爱尔兰作曲家和诗人托马斯·摩尔创作《夏天的最后一朵玫瑰》这首歌的灵感来源。"to be" 表示更确切的信念，而 "to have been" 表达的是一种过去的推测。这两种表达有细微的差别，但都是可以理解的。

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马羽鑫

yuqinghuaz1 发表于 2023-5-13 08:13
用to have been  与  to be   意思有区别

那你说这里应该用什么呢？我是觉得应该用 to have been 啊

yuqinghuaz1

用to have been  与  to be   意思有区别   

yuqinghuaz1

to have been 表示一直以来     而 to be  是一种客观肯定的描述      to have been 表示一直以来，不关以后的事。而 to be  是一种客观肯定的描述 ，表示这事就这样。

马羽鑫

Oeasy 发表于 2023-5-13 19:42
问：
It is believed to be the rose which inspired the song The Last Rose of Summer by the Irish com ...

但语法上，to 后面的内容，时间上在主句谓语之前，就应该用have been啊，
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5 p/ _2 U9 D# Q2 P1 V( h  P. }It is believed to have been the rose

is believed 时间是现在，后面的时间是在is之前，应该用 have been 才对啊

maxt

5楼chatgpt说的非常清楚了。就我个人语感来说， was believed to be 表示客观表述当时人们的信念，was believed to have been 表示当时人们认为如何如何（而现在人们不这样认为）。

马羽鑫

maxt 发表于 2023-6-10 09:04
5楼chatgpt说的非常清楚了。就我个人语感来说， was believed to be 表示客观表述当时人们的信念，was beli ...

1 O; O1 }, H  V! n; z! U原句是is，不是was，你先把这个弄明白了

' [1 j% ^0 D( B6 y* T另外不要拿你所谓的“语感“作论据

maxt

马羽鑫 发表于 2023-6-10 13:38
4 @. m2 h7 `2 u# V原句是is，不是was，你先把这个弄明白了

另外不要拿你所谓的“语感“作论据 ...

是is还是was根本不影响后面用to be还是to have been。你还在纠结主句和从句的时间关系，显然没有理解to be和to have been的区别。前面的帖子已经解释的很清楚了，自己慢慢体会吧。
9 M7 N* {! O) f要回答语言问题，当然要从语感出发，否则呢？ 如果字典或者语法书能回答你的问题，你也不必在这里问。

马羽鑫

maxt 发表于 2023-10-9 17:54
是is还是was根本不影响后面用to be还是to have been。你还在纠结主句和从句的时间关系，显然没有理解to b ...

Einstein is believed to have a high IQ.
$ s3 @8 E7 a" ]- t7 qEinstein is believed to have had a high IQ.
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, h/ X5 i: S7 z2 k7 ?/ L) q3 Q( D  H只有第二句才是正确的，这个你明白么？

maxt

马羽鑫 发表于 2023-10-9 18:15
Einstein is believed to have a high IQ.
& o( O' X$ Y1 G( A: @, Q' p8 |Einstein is believed to have had a high IQ.

你自己感觉一下这句跟
It is believed to be the rose which inspired the song 有什么不同。不用再回了。因为你已经笃定了一个答案，那就没什么必要讨论了。找个老外问问。

sabrina2111

或许这段内容能解答楼主的疑问:States are unbounded, that is, they do not have a beginning and an end, whereas occurrences (which can be bounded or unbounded) are dynamic situations which come about. Languages locate situations in time most commonly by means of verbal inflections. 即:楼主给的例句从state(一种存在状态,情况，状况）方面理解，时间上是unbounded;按楼主的那个思路（occurrences)理解，时间上是bounded.

马羽鑫

maxt 发表于 2023-10-9 23:07
你自己感觉一下这句跟
6 `" j% Y+ e9 K' B! EIt is believed to be the rose which inspired the song 有什么不同。不用再回了 ...

我要是能感觉出来有什么不同还能发帖子问么？
  n) }7 ]0 o3 H" l2 T你遇到不明白的概念都是凭感觉，没有理性思考和总结？

马羽鑫

sabrina2111 发表于 2023-10-10 08:34
) l9 ?9 @3 y* Y5 B. e4 Q" u或许这段内容能解答楼主的疑问:States are unbounded, that is, they do not have a beginning and an end, ...

不明白你在说啥

sabrina2111

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5 B0 i, \9 N, i7 I0 @8 @( d( i% C楼上不是学语言的么,怎么连摘自Oxford Modern English Grammar的原文都看不懂?再补充一段: The present tense is often needed to describe a situation that obtains within a span of time that includes the moment of utterence, and extends into the past and future.
. ^. P1 l* c; n, e9 S! j2 ?因为给的例句是…is believed…属于verbs that describe cognitive states,这样后面的句子内容在事实上不是一遍又一遍地发生，但是在认知上却可以一次又一次地发生。要知道，the repeated situations can be viewed as making up a state.

lightheart

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楼主的质疑并不是没有道理。例如2018年专四真题PART III LANGUAGE USAGE的11题如下：
The Bent Pyramid outside Cario ______ ancient Egypt’s first attempt to build a smooth-side pyramid.
5 Q' W7 m  d7 S( I9 ^3 O) P6 ~A. has been believed to have been
B. was believed to be
( ~4 R' x; q: YC. is believed to have been
- Z0 L  e4 V; j2 Z' C& _D. is believed to be
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答案给的是C，这似乎应该足以支撑楼主的观点了，但是我发现母语者的实际用法和国内应试的标准有相当大的出入。例如，2019年的时候我在WordReference Forum发帖子问母语者这个问题，母语者的回复是Like many multiple-choice questions, a poor range of answers. You're right that D is just as good as C. The extra perfect tense doesn't add anything: it doesn't put it further back in time, or anything like that. We could say either. (entangledbank, London)。这或许可以给答主提供一些参考意见。
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WR帖子链接：https://forum.wordreference.com/ ... -have-been.3560622/

( a- F/ h, L# J/ i* P" z当时我放了两个例证：
# _3 m" b" N! @1. The Hexen pepper-box handgun first appeared in 2013, and is believed to be the first attempt to create a viable firearm with a 3D printer.
, h# M6 ]" d) X, u0 t8 u! {2. This is believed to be the first TV ad which portrayed two gays as an ordinary couple. (FORBES: Advertising Helped Bring Gay Rights Into The Mainstream)

我个人的意见是这样的：
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《剑桥英语语法》在Anteriority expressed by the perfect when the preterite not available的一个小节下面提到了下面这样的对应：
He died in 1806. ~ He is believed to have died in 1806. (CaGEL, p159)
也就是说died和to have died意思上是对应的，我们自然也不说：
" }0 r$ L5 I' a. s* l, T*He dies in 1806. ~ *He is believed to die in 1806.
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不过如果把die这样的达成动词换做是be这样的状态动词，情况或许会有不同：
4 B3 ]2 }  U* v7 `首先我们看看It <is>/<was> ancient Egypt’s first attempt to build a smooth-side pyramid.这里is和was的选取问题。如果是按照上面出题人的逻辑，这里是非用was不可的，对应过来就是is believed to have been。但实际上这种对过去某个人物或者时间做一般评述的语境用现在时却再正常不过了，例如Quirk书中的例子Brahms is/was the last great representative of German classicism. (CGEL, p182)就明确标记的is/was都可以。既然It is ancient Egypt’s first attempt to build a smooth-side pyramid.并没有什么问题，自然It is believed to be ancient Egypt’s first attempt to build a smooth-side pyramid.也是可以的了。题主的例子也是类似，如果您不认为It is the rose which inspired the song.的is有什么问题，那自然也可以说It is believed to be the rose which inspired the song.了。
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换句话说：
It is the rose which inspired the song. ~ It is believed to be the rose which inspired the song.
" P+ K: g: k, y; F- aIt was the rose which inspired the song. ~ It is believed to have been the rose which inspired the song.
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/ F2 W5 A5 O0 x楼上sabrina2111说的差不多是一个意思。