chalice = [有毒的]杯子还是[有毒的]酒？

klwo2

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奇了怪了，最近总看见莫名其妙的新闻标题，比如这个：
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比尔·盖茨称微软并购TikTok交易是一尊“被下了毒的圣杯”

又：

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索斯盖特：英格兰帅位像带毒圣杯接手前考虑很久

也是稀奇，古往今来常常听说对水下毒、 对酒下毒、 对饭菜下毒的，没听过把蒙汗药敌敌畏抹在干燥的杯子上的，这是怎的，接触传染吗？
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- I+ ^% v, D% V, @# x% k一查原文，原来是poisoned chalice
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chalice这个词，英汉大词典(第2版)
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1. 酒杯；高脚酒杯
9 J' r7 q" S, h7 L% u, R$ ]- ^2 ?2. 圣餐杯；圣餐杯中的酒
4 s! X, p! E" T( S+ e+ a( X3. 杯状花

既能指杯子本身，也能指杯子里面的酒。这一点，似乎是参考了 Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary：
chalice

1. Eccles.
a. a cup for the wine of the Eucharist or Mass.
b. the wine contained in it.
2. a drinking cup or goblet.
6 F* R, P9 g( Z( n4 A9 J3. a cuplike blossom.

3 i' p9 ]+ o# t6 g- j! L0 J) `! u结果一查【poisoned chalice】，这可不妙了，英汉词典开始打架了。

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英汉大词典(第2版)：
poisoned chalice
有毒奖杯(喻指可能带来不利结果的奖赏、任务等）——「奖杯」这话也有毛病，不过这里不详述。
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: ^7 v- |6 I5 h1 ?麦克米伦高阶英汉
a job or piece of work that will cause many problems for the person who is forced to do it 有毒的圣餐杯（指会给被迫从事者造成许多问题的工作）

21世纪大英汉词典
poisoned chalice
( B) q. y- N& k5 u3 U( B( F1.毒酒(貌似诱人实则有害的东西) —— 这个汉语释义有点瑕疵，「东西」太广

; k' ~( Y% t) u% T, A* S牛津高阶英汉双解词典9
- A( e9 r- x# q( h5 X' C, X(especially BrE) a thing that seems attractive when it is given to sb but which soon becomes unpleasant 金杯毒酒

5 ~- g! ?* I& O- W( I一边说是杯子有毛病，毒是杯子的；一边说是酒有毛病，毒是酒的，杯子不过是个容器。
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poisoned chalice  n.  (a) a chalice containing wine, etc., laced with poison;         (b) figurative an assignment or award which appears advantageous to the recipient but proves to be detrimental.

; A4 e8 h) O* x2 ]说【装着毒酒的杯子】，lace的对象，只能是液体，这就说明是酒有毛病，杯子兼指杯子里的酒而已。
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) q8 K1 }  y8 C# L9 E话说，汉语里的【圣杯】，似乎对应英语里头至少两个单词，Grail/Holy Grail更像【圣杯】，chalice本该叫【圣餐杯】：
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(in medieval legend) the cup or platter used by Christ at the Last Supper, and in which Joseph of Arimathea received Christ's blood at the Cross. Quests for it undertaken by medieval knights are described in versions of the Arthurian legends written from the early 13th century onward.
圣杯, 圣盘(中世纪传说中耶稣在最后的晚餐中用的杯或盘, 亚利马太人约瑟就是用它在十字架下接了耶稣的血; 中世纪骑士对这个圣杯或圣盘的寻找在13世纪早期之后有关亚瑟王传奇的不同版本中都有描述)。
1.1        figurative a thing which is being earnestly pursued or sought after
〈喻〉渴望得到的东西:
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. U) }  w4 i; }! `4 i利润已经成为人们追逐的目标。

有些英汉词典玩阉割、玩以偏概全玩上了瘾，人家说的明明是【cup or platter】，翻译过来就只剩【圣杯】，【圣盘】飞了。新牛津没这毛病，所以引用一下。

近现代汉语辞源：



Holy Grail 跟 chalice 的本义、引申义都有些不一样，不过有的人大概看着都是西洋物，所以统一叫【圣杯】了。只可怜我们这些小民，看中文新闻还纳闷这些个。
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oversky

也是稀奇，古往今来常常听说对水下毒、 对酒下毒、 对饭菜下毒的，没听过把蒙汗药敌敌畏抹在干燥的杯子上的，这是怎的，接触传染吗？

Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade

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最后选圣杯时那一幕，的确是杯子有问题。
3 ]- `, `: R. u! A$ u. n就我以前看过的故事和电影，grail 都是指圣杯，没有提到圣盘。
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) D* R6 y5 c8 X! ]) g: ?& U& \4 |6 ~Britannica Concise Encyclopedia
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In Arthurian legend, a sacred cup that was the object of a mystical quest by knights of the Round Table.
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) v# R8 ]; R; C" M, ?# @The grail legend may have been inspired by classical and Celtic stories of magic cauldrons and horns of plenty. It was first given Christian significance as a mysterious, holy object by Chrétien de Troyes in the 12th-century romance Perceval, or the Count of the Holy Grail. The grail was sometimes said to be the same cup used by Jesus at the Last Supper and later by Joseph of Arimathea to catch the blood flowing from the wounds of Jesus on the cross. The most notable figure connected with the grail was Sir Galahad, who, according to Sir Thomas Malory's Le Morte Darthur, found the grail and achieved mystical union with God.

Encyclopaedia Britannica Online
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Chalice, a cup used in the celebration of the Christian Eucharist. Both the statement of St. Paul about “the cup of blessing which we bless” (1 Corinthians 10:16) and the accounts of the institution of the Eucharist in the first three Gospels indicate that special rites of consecration attended the use of the chalice from the beginning. It was not until the recognition of Christianity by the Roman Empire in the 4th century that silver and gold became the usual materials for the chalice. In the Middle Ages the legend of the Holy Grail surrounded the origins of the eucharistic chalice with a magical aura.

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A chalice (Middle English) from Latin calix, ‘cup’, also the source of the botanical calix) is a large cup or goblet, and a poisoned chalice something that seems attractive but is likely to be a source of problems. A poisoned chalice features in Shakespeare's Macbeth, and is the source of our expression.

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klwo2

oversky 发表于 2020-8-10 20:01
3 i; a% k2 b3 A6 a9 B, yIndiana Jones and the Last Crusade

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA7J0KkanzM

) g% Q7 f) D1 i, x% R7 T# o咦，我讲得没错呀，chalice 一直是一种现实生活中有的杯子，而grail 是传说中的东西，可能是杯子可能是盘子，grail 偶尔跟chalice 混用，电影里表现成杯子当然合理

- v/ G: n5 Y: Y至于电影里杯子有毒，那是情节需要。在原始出处《麦克白》里头，人不是真的被杯子/酒毒死的，人是捅死的，但poisoned chalice仍然说的是酒：

MACBETH
( v/ e% E  t, i; u: R" sIf it were done when ’tis done, then ’twere well
It were done quickly. If the assassination
4 u  |- R8 D5 YCould trammel up the consequence, and catch
With his surcease success; that but this blow
Might be the be-all and the end-all here,
But here, upon this bank and shoal of time,
We’d jump the life to come. But in these cases
2 z4 x& V* C$ nWe still have judgment here, that we but teach
Bloody instructions, which, being taught, return
" v7 ?% i4 ]5 m2 ~( P9 |% oTo plague th' inventor: this even-handed justice
Commends the ingredients of our poisoned chalice
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: U: ~: k9 b  e0 P& L; KFirst, as I am his kinsman and his subject,
Strong both against the deed; then, as his host,
Who should against his murderer shut the door,
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麦克白
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5 s7 S0 j5 O: d8 [    要是干了以后就完了，那么还是快一点干；要是凭着暗杀的手段，可以攫取美满的结果，又可以排除了一切后患；要是这一刀砍下去，就可以完成一切、终结一切、解决一切——在这人世上，仅仅在这人世上，在时间这大海的浅滩上；那么来生我也就顾不到了。可是在这种事情上，我们往往逃不过现世的裁判；我们树立下血的榜样，教会别人杀人，结果反而自己被人所杀；把毒药投入酒杯里的人，结果也会自己饮鸠而死，这就是一丝不爽的报应。他到这儿来本有两重的信任：第一，我是他的亲戚，又是他的臣子，按照名分绝对不能干这样的事；第二，我是他的主人，应当保障他身体的安全，怎么可以自己持刀行刺？

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Japhet

饮鸩止渴

MYsedulous

《新世纪英汉大》poisoned chalice:金杯毒酒（指看似诱人实则会导致失败的工作或机会），其实这括号内的汉语译文似有问题。
帖一段《远流百科》的译文：给接受者带来不利或麻烦的委任、奖励或荣誉（基本是照译英和辞典），但我觉得比新世纪的好懂明白一些。
再看看Chambers的原文：
7 h) r* }$ ?# d! ~) v' @An apprarent gift or benefit that is likely to cause great trouble to the recepient.